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Subject: [humanmarkup] PBS-Doc-sign
- From: Rex Brooks <rexb@starbourne.com>
- To: humanmarkup@lists.oasis-open.org, cognite@zianet.com, clbullar@ingr.com,kurt@kurtcagle.net, mbatsis@netsmart.gr
- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:39:32 -0700
Title: PBS-Doc-sign
I didn't change much about sign in the
schema, but it did add it to the Semiosis Section
Subject: [humanmarkup-comment] Base Schema
- sign
From: Rex Brooks <rexb@starbourne.com>
To: humanmarkup-comment@lists.oasis-open.org,
humanmarkup@lists.oasis-open.org
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 04:53:44 -0700
Title: Base Schema - sign
Hi All,
I put it off until after deciding on
asking for the element perception to be added to our list of elements
of the Primary Base Schema, but I can postpone it no longer.
sign
This is an abstract ComplexType element
that belongs to the attribute group humlIdentifierAtts.
It is described/defined as Human Sign:
A concrete denotation of a specific meaning. Common signs include
pictures or drawings, although a human posture like a clenched first,
an outstretched arm, or a hand posed in a "Stop" gesture may
also serve as signs. the main difference between a sign and a signal
is that a sign has a specific meaning and usually requires training.
For example, an ape or a dog can be taught to respond consistently and
appropriately to signs but reach them Morse Code (a signal) is much
harder it at all doable.
Signs communication simple messages
swiftly [and] effeciiently, [and] may be culturally and
location-specific, that is, meaningful in a locale (a stop sign) or
culture (the Hindu greeting of folded hands).
First, I expect that this will be
expanded upon, particularly the distinctions between sign and signal
and the relationship of sign and signal since a sign can be used in a
signal and a signal can use a sign.
I think it is possible to condense this
after it is expanded, but since it was drawn as a less formal
description, I will just say that the one concept that I would add is
that a sign is a first order abstraction of meaning because it
expresses some idea or concept not directly related to the sign itself
(eg, the stop sign which is a request for a behavior but is neither
the actual request signal nor a direct representation of the behavior
requested). Beyond that it would be inappropriate for me to go since
Len and Sylvia are busy working themselves down to mere nubbins on
these very important issues. And since I am also collaborating with
Sylvia in another project which we will announce at the correct time,
I better be careful not to inspire much distraction.
However, I mentioned the concept of
orders or levels of abstraction because it is a very necessary one to
introduce now, at the atomistic, elemental level in an effort to keep
the one single, most neglected and most accidentally and inadvertently
misused or misunderstood concept as clear as possible.
Ciao,
Rex
--
Subject: RE: [humanmarkup-comment] Base
Schema - sign
From: "Bullard, Claude L (Len)"
<clbullar@ingr.com>
To: 'Rex Brooks' <rexb@starbourne.com>,
humanmarkup-comment@lists.oasis-open.org
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 09:09:18 -0500
Title: Base Schema - sign
If we use the Pearce approach to
semiotics, we may have to rework these.
Sign, gesture, symbol, icon, and signal
pretty much are variations on sign.
So we may be able to condense this.
In Pearce, all of the systems are
sign producing systems. So
one might derive a world representation
that works something like this at the
high level model, but breaks down
into a set of increasingly intelligent
layers a la Gudwin when implemented
in a framework. Note that the
global environment is a semiote and that
feedback from environment and into and
among semiotes then back
to the environment is complete.
One trick is to avoid infinite semiosis.
|------------------------------------------------------|
|Semiote: Global
environment |
|------------------------------------------------------|
|
|
|
+----------------------------+ |
|
| | |
|
v | |
|
|----------------------------| |
|
| |Semiote: local
environment
|
| |
| sign
|----------------------------| |
|
|---+-->| sign
->--+---+ ------>|
| | |
Semiote:
member
| | | |
|
| | |
Semiote:
member
| | | |
|
| |
|----------------------------| |
| | |
|
| | | |
|
|
+-------------------------------------+ |
| |
|
| | |
|
+-------------------------+ |
|
|
| |
|
|
|-----------v----------------| |
|
| |Semiote: local
environment
|
| |
| sign
|----------------------------| |
|
|---+-->| sign ->--+--------+-->|
| | |
Semiote:
member
|
|
|
| | |
Semiote:
member
|
|
|
| |
|----------------------------|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
+-------------------------------------+ |
|
|
|-------------------------------------------------------
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