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Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee
If it can be done, it sounds good to me. > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to > Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee > From: "Bergeron, Donald L. (LNG-DAY)" <Donald.Bergeron@lexisnexis.com> > Date: Wed, August 17, 2005 10:40 am > To: "'Chambers, Rolly'" <rlchambers@smithcurrie.com>, John Messing > <jmessing@law-on-line.com>, "Winters,Roger" <Roger.Winters@METROKC.GOV> > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org, Rex McElrath > <mcelratr@gaaoc.us>, Dallas Powell <dpowell@tybera.com>, "Bergeron, > Donald L. (LNG-DAY)" <Donald.Bergeron@lexisnexis.com> > > Paragraph numbers and page/line numbers are all needed unevenly across the > domain of documents. We need to support both. The black or white thinking of > our Citations group earlier focused on public domain or bust. The result was > bust the last time. We can and will do better! > > > > Regards, > > Don > > Donald L. Bergeron > Systems Designer > LexisNexis > donald.bergeron@lexisnexis.com > O 937-865-1276 > H 937-748-2775 > M 937-672-7781 > -----Original Message----- > From: Chambers, Rolly [mailto:rlchambers@smithcurrie.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:31 PM > To: John Messing; Winters,Roger > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org; Rex McElrath; Bergeron, > Donald L. (LNG-DAY); Dallas Powell > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to Continue W > ork of Documents Subcommittee > > I agree that paragraph references work better in electronic documents > (particularly XML documents), but I agree with John M. that lawyers and > judges are accustomed to using page and line references to navigate through > paper filings. If the consensus is to move forward with paragraph references > vs. page-line references, then we should anticipate that such an approach > will not be gladly received (and may be resisted) by many document users. > > Rolly Chambers > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Messing [mailto:jmessing@law-on-line.com] > Sent: Wed 8/17/2005 1:05 PM > To: Winters,Roger > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org; 'Rex McElrath'; > 'Bergeron,Donald L. (LNG-DAY)'; 'Dallas Powell' > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to > Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > > Good luck telling that to judges who are busy in the courtroom and > are > used to page breaks during oral argument with line references, not > paragraphs, in my experience. > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to > > Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee > > From: "Winters, Roger" <Roger.Winters@METROKC.GOV> > > Date: Wed, August 17, 2005 8:36 am > > To: "'Bergeron, Donald L. (LNG-DAY)'" > <Donald.Bergeron@lexisnexis.com>, > > 'Dallas Powell' <dpowell@tybera.com>, John Messing > > <jmessing@law-on-line.com> > > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org, 'Rex McElrath' > > <mcelratr@gaaoc.us> > > > > RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to > Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > > I am someone who's formatted and set up a zillion documents > intended for others to receive electronically and display on their own > equipment, and, from my perspective, paragraph IDs have a great deal of > appeal for referencing purposes. Some other points about using paragraph IDs > as reference points: > > > > > Even though it is the intention of the author of a document that > lines consistently break at the same word, that page breaks occur exactly > for everyone, and that line numbering be as predictable as Chapter and Verse > in scriptures, it is fallible word processors who set up the actual pages. > > > > > Inserted graphics, printing with "squeeze" or "shrink" features on > (resulting in fonts that are fractional, e.g., 9.5), having different fonts > sharing the same name, printers with different capabilities, and so on -- > all such things can prevent documents being exactly the same when displayed > by different people on different equipment. > > > > > Let's also remember the person with a visual impairment who may > need to display a document with a larger font. The person may not have > access to equipment to magnify the image of the document, keeping it in its > original, smaller font, in order to preserve line numbering, etc. A > paragraph that is displayed in a much larger font (or that has been > translated to a different language!) would carry with it the same paragraph > ID no matter what is being done by the recipient when viewing the document. > > > > > > Roger Winters > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bergeron, Donald L. (LNG-DAY) > [mailto:Donald.Bergeron@lexisnexis.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:48 AM > > To: 'Dallas Powell'; John Messing; Winters, Roger > > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org; 'Rex McElrath' > > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to > Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > > I second Dallas's comment. Paragraphs are often the basis for > public domain > > citations for the same reasons. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Don > > > > Donald L. Bergeron > > Systems Designer > > LexisNexis > > donald.bergeron@lexisnexis.com > > O 937-865-1276 > > H 937-748-2775 > > M 937-672-7781 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dallas Powell [mailto:dpowell@tybera.com] > > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 1:31 PM > > To: John Messing; Winters,Roger > > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org; 'Rex McElrath' > > Subject: Re: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to > Continue W > > ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > > PDF and XSLT do not include the functions of a formatter. It is > the > > formatter that paginates, line wraps, and determines spacing based > on font > > faces, font sizes, kerning, and line space settings not XSLT or > PDF. > > > > Within XSLT you could insert a page marker based on some element > and a givin > > condition of that element, but, it is the formatter that keeps > track of the > > line lengths, spacing, wrapping, margins, and pagination that make > the > > proper insert. The elements (tags) alone do not provide adequate > > information to make those types of decisions. > > > > That is a motivating factor behind going to paragraphs. > Paragraphs can > > contextually be marked with elements, giving ID and IDrefs, which > provides a > > markup based reference rather than a formatted based reference. > > > > Dallas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Messing" <jmessing@law-on-line.com> > > To: "Winters,Roger" <Roger.Winters@METROKC.GOV> > > Cc: <legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org>; "'Rex McElrath'" > > <mcelratr@gaaoc.us> > > Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 5:28 PM > > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to > Continue W > > ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > > > > > I haven't found any statistics on the subject but from my > experience > > > anecdotally, I think lawyers and judges still refer to page and > line of > > > a document. Only PDF supports doing that electronically in my > own > > > experience, but fortunately PDF documents can be generated > directly > > > using XSLT from XML documents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request > to > > > > Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > > From: "Winters, Roger" <Roger.Winters@METROKC.GOV> > > > > Date: Mon, August 08, 2005 4:11 pm > > > > To: 'John Messing' <jmessing@law-on-line.com> > > > > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org, 'Rex McElrath' > > > > <mcelratr@gaaoc.us> > > > > > > > > RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to > Continue W > > ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > > > > > > I appreciate the concern over everyone literally "being on the > same > > page" when viewing electronic court documents, since precise > references are > > quite important. Years ago, there was some discussion, perhaps at > a > > theoretical level only, of using techni > > > ques like paragraph numbering as an alternative to referencing > page and > > line numbers. Is anyone aware of whether that idea or anything > like it has > > ever caught on with anyone as an approach to the reference > problem? > > > > > > > > Roger Winters > > > > King County > > > > Department of Judicial Administration > > > > Continuing Legal Education (CLE) Coordinator > > > > and > > > > Programs and Projects Manager > > > > 516 Third Avenue, E-609 MS: KCC-JA-0609 > > > > Seattle, Washington 98104 > > > > V: (206) 296-7838 F: (206) 296-0906 > > > > roger.winters@metrokc.gov > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: John Messing [mailto:jmessing@law-on-line.com] > > > > Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 3:39 PM > > > > To: Winters, Roger > > > > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org; 'Rex McElrath' > > > > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request > to Continue > > W ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > > > > > > One of the transforms that could be envisioned uses XSLT-FO to > output > > > > PDF binary files directly from the XML of a court document > constructed > > > > around the input messaging parameters. An advantage of this > approach is > > > > pagination. One limitation of other human viewer methods, such > as XML, > > > > HTML or even RTF (i.e., viewable in Word or Wordperfect) is > that screen > > > > resolution will affect pagination. In a courtroom environment, > it will > > > > become intolerable for an advocate to have information on one > page > > > > while the same information on the court's screen will be found > on a > > > > different page. PDF output prevents that result by having > pagination > > > > the same on all machines. > > > > > > > > My 2 cents. > > > > > > > > John Messing > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > > > Subject: RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request > to > > > > > Continue W ork of Documents Subcommittee > > > > > From: "Winters, Roger" <Roger.Winters@METROKC.GOV> > > > > > Date: Mon, August 08, 2005 3:18 pm > > > > > To: 'Rex McElrath' <mcelratr@gaaoc.us> > > > > > Cc: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > > > > > > > RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to > Continue > > Work of Documents Subcommittee > > > > > > > > > > Hello, Rex, > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad you've taken initiative with this proposal. I > realize there > > is much involved with which I am unfamiliar, but it seems this is > exactly > > the work that should be done to help realize a long-standing goal, > at least > > for some of the court clerks w > > > ho got involved with LegalXML early on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps you or others can guide me in finding some > introductory > > material for the less technically adept people, explaining some of > the > > subject matter with which we may be unfamiliar, specifically: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your modernization of my formula to "GJXDM -> Information > Exchange > > Package + XSL Style Sheet and/or XSL Transform and/or XSL > Formatting Objects > > = Human-Readable Document" - I have a high level familiarity with > GJXDM, but > > not with IEPs or XSL Form > > > atting Objects. I have a high level understanding only of the > other > > elements (XSL Style Sheets and XSL Transform). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand that part of the motivation is that in some > e-filing > > implementations there are essentially two different documents > involved > > submitted: a human-readable (e.g., PDF) and a data file for > processing. This > > apparently creates a situation wher > > > e it is a problem that the two might not be an exact match. > While I agree > > this work should help solve that problem, I would think that the > "norm" for > > e-filing would be a single document that includes all marked up > data > > elements and whatever is required > > > to present the document in human-readable form (e.g., > appropriate style > > sheet), plus (of course) everything else relating to signatures, > security, > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You mention a deliverable in September, "a draft of a > methodology to > > reproduce for other documents and refinement and expansion of the > > functionality of the methods used to create the first document > package" - I > > think that directions in plain languag > > > e will be among the most valuable items this project might > produce. I'd > > like to use my writing and editing skills to help develop such > > materials--but I have to understand the subject matter first. > Ultimately, > > the process has to be something easily expla > > > ined to non-technical people. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again for getting this started. > > > > > > > > > > Roger > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Roger Winters > > > > > King County > > > > > Department of Judicial Administration > > > > > Continuing Legal Education (CLE) Coordinator > > > > > and > > > > > Programs and Projects Manager > > > > > 516 Third Avenue, E-609 MS: KCC-JA-0609 > > > > > Seattle, Washington 98104 > > > > > V: (206) 296-7838 F: (206) 296-0906 > > > > > roger.winters@metrokc.gov > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Rex McElrath [mailto:mcelratr@gaaoc.us] > > > > > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 1:45 PM > > > > > To: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > > Subject: [legalxml-courtfiling] Feedback Request/Request to > Continue > > Work of Documents Subcommittee > > > > > > > > > > Feedback Request/Request to Continue Work of Documents > Subcommittee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > I've talked with the Chairs of this TC and some of the > members about > > reviving the Documents Subcommittee and am submitting this email > to the full > > TC in request of feedback and as a motion to continue the work of > the > > Documents Subcommittee. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been researching the work by Dr. Leff, work done on > the Rap > > Sheet, the current Court Documents specification, and other > related work for > > reference material and believe the existing goals of the Documents > > > Subcommittee are possible for use with > > > the new Information Exchange Packages (IEP's) promoted by GJXDM > > > Guidelines with the XML transform and stylizing technology that is > available > > today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The concept of the electronic documents from early on in > LegalXML was, > > as Roger Winters explained it: > > > > > > > > > > (DTD-a standard XML vocabulary -> Document Capable of > Automated Data > > Processing) + XSL Style Sheet = Human-Readable Document > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The updated form of this concept for the subcommittee would > be > > something like: > > > > > > > > > > GJXDM -> Information Exchange Package + XSL Style Sheet > and/or XSL > > Transform and/or XSL Formatting Objects = Human-Readable Document > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a summary statement of why to bring back the work of the > Documents > > Subcommittee, it compliments the current work of the larger > committee and of > > the Justice community in that it takes the Information Exchange > Packages > > built out of XML data and tra > > > nslates the data into a human viewable document. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Example Reasons for Pursuing Fully XML Based Documents With > Human > > Readable Views in the Documents Subcommittee: > > > > > > > > > > * Create less of a need to verify manually that the data > sent in to > > the case management system is the same as is in the human viewable > version > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Allow document management and creation functions to become > able to > > be much more flexible and robust due to the contents of the > documents being > > able to be understood by the machine more than a straight binary > > (PDF/DOC/etc) file would be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * Facilitation of automated reasoning systems > > > > > > > > > > * For large law firms and executive branch agencies, there > is more of > > a carrot to adopt e-filing as their forms creation process is more > > > simplified and they can improve the intelligence and reuse of > their > > documents easier with the contents marked up > > > with XML > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Outline of Plan for Documents Subcommittee: > > > > > > > > > > Objectives: > > > > > > > > > > * Main: Develop a base set of IEP's with human presentable > transforms > > for display. > > > > > * Secondary: If appropriate and open methods are found, or > developed, > > then formulate an updated Court Document Specification that uses > schemas and > > newer formatting technology. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Documents to Start Working With as Examples: > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Leff, of Western Illinois University, and some of his > students > > have produced several court documents with transforms into HTML. > This work > > is viewable at > http://www.wiu.edu/users/mflll/CriminalJusticeZoo.html. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The AOC in Georgia has many Child Support Enforcement > related > > documents that are being diagrammed, mapped to IEP guideline > compliant > > schema, and then mapped to transforms and style sheets to make > them usable > > for data exchange between systems and for > > > human presentation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Work for the Documents Subcommittee: > > > > > > > > > > The Documents Subcommittee of the OASIS LegalXML Court > Filing > > Technical Committee will be needed for domain expert knowledge of > both > > courts and XML technologies for use in vetting the electronic > documents and > > the methods used to produce the electron > > > ic documents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Draft Timeline for Documents Subcommittee: > > > > > > > > > > August 5th - Submit information about plans for the > Subcommittee to > > full TC on list serve > > > > > > > > > > August 19th - Submit Example Document Package with schemas, > > transforms, and style sheets and draft explanation of method used > to > > produce. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > August 19th-September 2nd- Comment and Revision Period > > > > > > > > > > September 9th - Submission of Revised Document Package and a > draft of > > a methodology to reproduce for other documents and refinement and > expansion > > of the functionality of the methods used to create the first > document > > package. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > September 9th-September 30th - Comment and Revision Period > > > > > > > > > > September 12th- Submit summary report to main TC list serve > > > > > > > > > > October 14th- Submit revised document package with updated > > documentation > > > > > > > > > > October 28th - Subcommittee Conference call and vote on > whether to > > move forward with preparing an updated Court Documents > Specification or > > whether more work needs to be done for methodology to create > documents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your time in looking over this proposal for > reviving the > > Documents Subcommittee. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > > > Rex McElrath > > > > > Judicial Council > > > > > Administrative Office of the Courts > > > > > 244 Washington St. SW, Ste 300 > > > > > Atlanta, GA 30334 > > > > > 404-657-9218 > > > > > mcelratr@gaaoc.us > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 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