Re: [office] renewed proposal for new position andspace attributesforthe list level

["Florian Reuter" <freuter@novell.com>]

Hi Oliver,

can we:

* use the fo:text-indent attribute instead of the text:label-aligned-at attribute? This would make the numbering styles consistent with the ODF style concept.

* specify alignment relative to fo:margin-left+fo:text-indent as to the picture I posted in the numclarification.pdf?

* Change the semantic of missing fo:margin-left and fo:text-indent from beeing "0" to "derived from paragraph"?

* Include the examples of the attached numclarification.pdf as normative in your ODF proposal?

All this are just minor changes which just make the enhancements more consistent with the existing ODF style concept.

What do you think?

~Florian



>>> Oliver-Rainer Wittmann - Software Engineer - Sun Microsystems <Oliver-Rainer.Wittmann@Sun.COM> 03/02/07 1:57 PM >>>
Hi,

I've talked to Florian via phone and resolved some misunderstandings. 
Florian will post the results of our phone call.

Regards, Oliver.

Florian Reuter wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Ad 1):
> I refer to the following exception rules:
> <quote>
> There exists two cases in which this additional tab stop isn't applied
> to start the text of the first line of the list item after the list label:
>  - The position of the additional tab stop is before the end of the
>  list label.
>  - Between the end of the list label and the position of the additional
>  tab stop exists already a tab stop at the list item.
>  In these cases an existing respectively a default tab stop is applied
>  after the list label. The additional tab stop can be applied by normal
>  inserted tab characters in the list item in these cases.
>  The additional tab stop can also been applied in the text lines, which
>  follow the first line of the list item.
> </quote>
> I guess they are not needed.
> 
> Ad 2):
> The „text:label-aligned-at“ is a real problem for me. In my opinion it adds unneeded additional complexity.
> I don’t understand what you mean with “it should be possible to specify the list item layout without considering the paragraph indent attributes“
> Aren’t the paragraph properties considered in any way?
> 
> Ad 3):
> We should not mix the usage of the attributes in “style:list-level-properties” and “style:list-level-label-alignment” since that would destroy backward compatibility with old readers.
> E.g. it may be necessary for backward compatibility to tell old reader that the alignment is “left” according to the old numbering system and “center” according to the new one.
> 
> Summary:
> 
> The text:label-aligned-at is a real problem for me because it adds unneeded complexity and harms interoperability. When I understood your proposal correctly the text:label-aligned-at will be set to the left indent in all use cases anyway. So why do you want with additional complexity which is basically redundant information?
> 
> ~Florian
> 
> 
> 
>>>> Oliver-Rainer Wittmann - Software Engineer - Sun Microsystems <Oliver-Rainer.Wittmann@Sun.COM> 03/02/07 11:38 AM >>>
> Hi Florian,
> 
> Florian Reuter wrote:
>> Hi Oliver,
>>
>> thanks for a "readable" Version of the proposal.
>>
>> I have the following questions:
>>
>> a) text:list-tab-stop-position. I think the tab-stop should always be inserted if listtab is given. I don't understand
>> the need for the exception rules.
> It's already said, that text:list-tab-stop-position belongs to 
> text:label-followed-by="listtab".
> 
> Which exception rules do you mean?
> I clearly state, that text:list-tab-stop-position is only of relevance, 
> when text:label-followed-by="listtab" is hold. There are no exceptions.
> 
> Do you mean that the two cases, when the list tab stop isn't applied, 
> are exception rules?
> If yes, I can say, that these cases aren't exception rules.
> 
>> b) I don't understand the need for text:label-aligned-at. Especially I don't understand the reference to
>> "text:minimum-label-width".
> The need of text:label-aligned-at is, that the list item layout should 
> be specified without considering the paragraph inde layout of 
> list items than to have *two* attribute sets.
> 
> The reference to text:minimum-label-width is only redundant information. 
> That the value of text:minimum-label-width is treated as 0 is already 
> stated at new attribute text:list-level-position-and-space-mode.
>> But I guess I understand the problem you're trying to solve.
>> Let me suggest a different solution:
>> - Remove the text:label-aligned-at and add a text:label-alignment = left | center | right
>> - Specify that the number label is aligned left, centered or right wrt. to the first line indent.
> 
> I disagree, because
> - as stated above, it should be possible to specify the list item layout 
>   without considering the paragraph indent attributes.
> - there exist already attribute fo:align-at, which hold the values 
> "left", "center" and "right". Thus, there is no need to introduce 
> another attribute like text:label-alignment.
> 
> Regards, Oliver.
>

numclarification.odt