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Subject: Notes from 8 June 2020 ODF TC Teleconference
Greetings! Notes from the ODF TC Teleconference on 8 June 2020 are below. Hope everyone is at the start of a great week! Patrick ******************************************* anonymous morphed into Alfred Hellstern Please change your name from 'anonymous' using the Settings button anonymous morphed into Patrick Patrick: Amended Agenda ODF TC Teleconference 8 June 2020 ------ 1. Dial-In, Roll Call, Determination of Quorum and Voting Rights 2. Motion (simple majority): Approve the Agenda 3. Motion (simple majority): Approve minutes of 11 May 2020 (below) 4. ODF Later issues (Preference to current TC members and cycling through their issues so no one is on the spot for all of them in a meeting), btw, limiting the search to open/deferred issues counts 134: https://issues.oasis-open.org/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20OFFICE%20AND%20status%20in%20(Open%2C%20Deferred)%20AND%20fixVersion%20in%20(%22ODF%201.4%22%2C%20ODF-Next)%20ORDER%20BY%20reporter%20ASC ) 5. Holidays for the rest of 2020 and January of 2021? 6. Github - odf (as top branch) - maintainers? other github issues? (Insertions to prior agenda start here) 7. (New) Page-content-bottom vertical relation https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-4073 8. (New) Allow overlap graphic property https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-4047 9. Empty cell discussion - deferred because Andreas is absent - note for tracking. 10. Status update regarding ODF 1.3 manifest schema issue (/insertions to prior agenda end here) 11. Resolved issues for ODF 1.4 reflected in JIRA: https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-3781?jql=project%20%3D%20OFFICE%20AND%20status%20%3D%20Resolved%20AND%20affectedVersion%20%3D%20%22ODF%201.4%22 12. Adjournment ***** Changes or additions welcome! Hope everyone is at the start of a great week! Patrick anonymous morphed into Alfred Hellstern Please change your name from 'anonymous' using the Settings button anonymous morphed into Patrick Patrick: Amended Agenda ODF TC Teleconference 8 June 2020 ------ 1. Dial-In, Roll Call, Determination of Quorum and Voting Rights 2. Motion (simple majority): Approve the Agenda 3. Motion (simple majority): Approve minutes of 11 May 2020 (below) 4. ODF Later issues (Preference to current TC members and cycling through their issues so no one is on the spot for all of them in a meeting), btw, limiting the search to open/deferred issues counts 134: https://issues.oasis-open.org/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20OFFICE%20AND%20status%20in%20(Open%2C%20Deferred)%20AND%20fixVersion%20in%20(%22ODF%201.4%22%2C%20ODF-Next)%20ORDER%20BY%20reporter%20ASC ) 5. Holidays for the rest of 2020 and January of 2021? 6. Github - odf (as top branch) - maintainers? other github issues? (Insertions to prior agenda start here) 7. (New) Page-content-bottom vertical relation https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-4073 8. (New) Allow overlap graphic property https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-4047 9. Empty cell discussion - deferred because Andreas is absent - note for tracking. 10. Status update regarding ODF 1.3 manifest schema issue (/insertions to prior agenda end here) 11. Resolved issues for ODF 1.4 reflected in JIRA: https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-3781?jql=project%20%3D%20OFFICE%20AND%20status%20%3D%20Resolved%20AND%20affectedVersion%20%3D%20%22ODF%201.4%22 12. Adjournment ***** Changes or additions welcome! Hope everyone is at the start of a great week! Patrick Minutes from 11 May 2020 ********* Start of today's meeting: Patrick: agenda - approved by consent Patrick: Minutes from 27 April 2020 - approved by consent Patrick: Oasis errata process - https://www.oasis-open.org/policies-guidelines/tc-process-2017-05-26#errata Patrick: Michael notes not an OASIS standard so errata process doesn't fit Patrick: Question becomes how to avoid creating a new specification in order to fix a schema error Patrick: Perhaps better, we don't have a light weight way to fix minor errors without a new specification - Patrick: heavy solution - new specification - alternative solution -- ask Chet- Patrick: Michael, if nothing faster, then do another specification - Patrick: Svante - need a flow chart of the defect process - defect report at a certain stage Patrick: Patrick - will have answer on process at least, perhaps not the chart, by 11 May meeting Patrick: Regina - empty cell proposal - latest https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/email/archives/202005/msg00008.html Svante Schubert: Let me rephrase emptycell to has no cell value: http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part2.html#ISBLANK Patrick: Svante - empty string an empty value? - what is blank? cell without value? Patrick: Andreas - values are not specified as paragraphs - values are in attributes - if don't give a value, figure out from content - that's a problem Patrick: Andreas - problem is where there is no value specified - no value type, look at content to figure out what it is, don't know what empty paragraph means - it's an interpretation issue Patrick: Andreas - if applications don't agree what it means - Patrick: Svante - could say for ODF version - here is the semantic agreement Patrick: Andreas - what is proposed is don't do this - Patrick: From the proposal - second paragraph - It is implementation-dependent whether the markup <table:table-cell><text/></table:table-cell> is an "empty cell" or not. For interoperability producers should not write such markup, but add an office:value-type="string" attribute in case a cell with empty string is intended, or omit the empty child element <text/> in case an "empty cell" is intended. Patrick: minor correction: "for which non" to "for which none" Svante Schubert: I just looked into the ODF RelaxNG all XML nodes beyond table:table-cell are optional. Patrick: Svante, wants to work out the range of proposals - Patrick: Regina - spreadsheets also represent database data - makes a difference if exists as a field or exist and had not value - Patrick: Svante - what does the XML allow - Patrick: Defer to 11 May, Svante will file a more detailed proposal Patrick: Regina - empty cell equal to ISBLANK - cannot say from XML that cell is empty - can have chart-elements so not considered for formulas - cannot use only XML to describe it Patrick: Alfred - first create cell - it is not empty when creating a new sheet - Regina outlines the steps - used Office 365 Patrick: Regina - different value on re-opening than when editing (creation) Patrick: Alfred agrees - Patrick: Regina - need an overview over the tools to produce links - template for specification Patrick: Would want to have version for ODF 1.4 - so we can incorporate immediately - Patrick: Patrick - need to request templates from Chet for ODF 1.4 - Svante Schubert: https://tdf.github.io/odftoolkit/docs/odf1.3/OpenDocument-v1.3-cs01-schema-rng.html Svante Schubert: This is an RNG (RelaxNG Grammar) as HTML with lnks Svante Schubert: links Patrick: That's clever! Andreas Guelzow: indeed Patrick: Michael - there was a subversion repository - Patrick: Svante - Github has many tools Michael Stahl: [svn-remote "svn"] url = https://tools.oasis-open.org/version-control/svn/office Patrick: Regina - current specification is based on 1.1 - list styles - should update to more recent list styles - old paragraph and character styles - need a guide to the style in which situation Patrick: adjourned Patrick: roll - quorum - yes Patrick: Agenda approved by consent Patrick: Amend to say approve minutes of 5 May 2020 Patrick: 5 May 2020 -> 4 May 2020 Patrick: Consent to minutes of 4 May 2020 Patrick: 5.a. - will use latest version of Libre Office Patrick: 5.b - version control Patrick: Svante - want to use Github for the artifacts - wants to extract default value and to check against list - Patrick: Regina - go to Github as zip files? or each document a directory? Patrick: Michael - Jose was working on a way to diff the xml files Patrick: Alfred - use Github for file repository or show different versions of ODT files Patrick: Afred - change tracking in the ODT - Github for file respository and storage Patrick: Request - for Github respository - commit artifacts as ODT or schema as appropriate - public viewable - Patrick: c. Style extraction - and normalization Svante Schubert: In regard of 5.b: For instance, we should add the XSLT files that were being to create the ODF 1.3 HTML documents to this GitHub repro. Svante Schubert: Patrick says to 5.c: Inconsistent usage of styles Patrick: Regina - current problem there are styles - with same names but different - appendix heading and appendix heading with text Patrick: Francis - ODT - styles were applied have gone missing - default values - looking at the text and looking at the list of style - different spellings - and so on. Patrick: Francis - body:text - and direct formatting applied - Patrick: Francis - category of applied styles - can filter until those that have been applied - but not how often they are used - Svante Schubert: @Francis: https://github.com/tdf/odftoolkit/tree/1.0.0_SNAPSHOT/odfdom Patrick: d. 4.7 Empty Cell terminology Michael Stahl: found an old mail by Jos "Subject: normalizing / cleaning up ODF files for use in revision control" https://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/201508/msg00004.html Patrick: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/office/message.php/202005/msg00011.html Patrick: Andreas - there are certain states that should not exist - Patrick: Andreas - in last file - in that cell - 4 and 5 cases should not exist - no justification for cell with no type or where the type is void - where the cell contains empty or non-empty paragraphs - not clear what it means to a consumer, if there is text, it should be shown to the user - is text in cell, not "blank" Patrick: Andreas - would have to say should be read as content doesn't exist - treat as producer forgot the string type or put in content where it should not have. - Patrick: Svante - user adds content without knowing the complexity of the cell - not intuitive where everything is optional - for a future proposal - if there is content with no type - it should be string type - in a future version of ODF - 4 and 5 make no sense but are valid ODF and users might fall into that trap Patrick: Andreas - current standard only talks about a type - doesn't address the issue of where there is no type and there is content in the cell - a fix ought to address the whole problem - cell that appears to have content - Patrick: Regina - tables in text documents as well - in Word, have tables with no value type at all - save to ODT Patrick: Andreas - must make sense in spreadsheets - showing content and isBlank should go together Patrick: Svante - leaving type out is like saying void (present version) Patrick: Andreas - probably should say NOT legal to do - no value type - no content in the cell - Patrick: Regina - must define content to specify it's absence, such as an image that has no type Patrick: Andreas and Svante agree - define content - agreed Svante Schubert: Andreas said: We should define what content is. Svante Schubert: Andreas said: Not yet a proposal type of content and a) what isBlank is/does, but at the same time b) prohibit users creating content on emtpy cells Svante Schubert: ^content^"content" Svante Schubert: Regina stated: We have the dilemma of ODF text applications that are currently not using any data types. Svante Schubert: So these cells are by definition empty Patrick: adjourned Start of 8 June 2020 meeting Patrick: We have quorum. Patrick: Agenda - approved by consent Patrick: Minutes from 11 May 2020 - approved by consent - Patrick: 5. Holidays for the rest of 2020 - 2021 Patrick: US Labor Day - 7 September 2020 Patrick: Columbus 12 Oct 2020 Michael Stahl: none in DE for rest of 2020 Patrick: 22 Nov. 2020 - for Thanksgiving Patrick: 21st and 28th of December Patrick: 7 Sept, 12 Oct, 22 Nov - Patrick: Holidays thus far for 2020 7 Sept., 12 Oct., 23 Nov., 28th Dec. - Patrick: Approved by consent Patrick: 6. Github - odf - Patrick: who to list maintainers? Svante Schubert: Some from the TC, Michael and I might volunteer ï Svante Schubert: Because we are using GitHub for ODF toolkit Svante Schubert: And I would suggest to name the reprository odf-tc or odftc. As it is related to ODF and TC the TC makes sense in the default name. Svante Schubert: I stumbled over another example: https://github.com/tc39/ecma262/releases/tag/es2020 The repro name here is ecma262. Patrick: Svante and Michael Stahl as maintainers - volunteers Svante Schubert: "odf-tc" Patrick: with no objection odf-tc Patrick: Regina - wants something for tools - xslt - scripts - Svante Schubert: Regina: We want something for tools. Patrick: under the top level repository - tools Svante Schubert: Michael and me come up with a directory structure suggestion for GitHub Patrick: To post to mailing list for discussion Patrick: https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-4073 Patrick: (there is a typo in the agenda, 4047 should read: office-4074) Patrick: Sorry, not an error at all! https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-4047 Regina Henschel: page-content-bottom determines a base for the value given by "from-top" of 20.397 Patrick: office-4073 for - ODF 1.4 accepted Michael Stahl: loext:vertical-rel in schema proposal has wrong namespace Patrick: opened in JIRA, awaiting draft from Regina Patrick: Accepted and awaiting final proposal Patrick: https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-4047 Patrick: default should be set to true Svante Schubert: The default value true should be added. Patrick: Svante - need to define what overlapping means? Svante Schubert: The semantic of 'overlapping' might be a good to define more precisly (with examples) Regina Henschel: 20.181 Patrick: in ODF 1.3 Svante Schubert: https://docs.oasis-open.org/office/OpenDocument/v1.3/cs01/part3-schema/OpenDocument-v1.3-cs01-part3-schema.html#__RefHeading__1419776_253892949 Patrick: Office-4047 for ODF 1.4 - accepted - specific proposal to follow on mailing list Patrick: Empty cell discussion - deferred because Andreas is absent - note for tracking. Patrick: Status update regarding ODF 1.3 manifest schema issue Regina Henschel: https://issues.oasis-open.org/browse/OFFICE-4046 Michael Stahl: i don't think it's required for us to fix this in ODF 1.3 because this pattern is only used by one attribute and i'm not aware of an application that uses a value corresponding to this QName pattern Michael Stahl: the attribute is manifestïreferred-view-mode Patrick: Ascertain status on adoption of ODF 1.3 for next week - Michael Stahl: PowerPoint supports the value "presentation-slide-show" which is separate from QName pattern -- Patrick Durusau patrick@durusau.net Technical Advisory Board, OASIS (TAB) Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC 26300 Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps) Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net Homepage: http://www.durusau.net Twitter: patrickDurusau
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