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Subject: Re: [ubl] Incoterms (was: Re: [ubl] Minutes of Pacific UBL TC call 5|6 May 2008)
Nice to hear this ! > [roberto@javest.com:] > > | is the following UN/ECE recommendation allowing us to include the > | Incoterms 2000 code list into UBL 2.1 ? > | > | UNE/CE Rec 05 > | http://www.unece.org/cefact/recommendations/rec05/rec05_ecetrd259.pdf > > Based on two hours of research, I now think that Roberto is right > in saying that we can include the Incoterms code list. We just > need to be clear on what we mean by that. > Of course we need to avoid including into the genericode list the full descriptions provided "at payment" by ICC (International Chambre of Commerce). We just need a code and a description, possibly a localization of the description...as it is available in most countries. > I see four things at issue here: the Incoterms themselves; the > three-letter abbreviations of the Incoterms; the composite you get > when an Incoterm abbreviation is followed by the name of a place, > port, or destination and then the tag "Incoterms 2000"; and the > Preambles that define in detail the legal implications of each > Incoterm. The composite is the way we should use it on a real use case, as the Incoterm need to be completed by the location. However the Incoterm code is self explanatory describing the distribution of costs and responsabilities between buyer/seller. We do not need an enumeration of all combinations between Incoterms and Locode. UN/Locode * Incoterm is a crazy number and not useful at all. > > Example Incoterm: > > FREE ON BOARD > > Example abbreviation: > > FOB > > Example composite: > > FOB Liverpool Incoterms 2000 I think noone get offended if we use Incoterm and Locode into different UBL BIEs. The composite example (and maybe constraint) is just for the printed form not the electronic document. > > Example Preamble: > > "Free on Board" means that the seller delivers when the goods > pass the ship's rail at the named port of shipment. This means > that the buyer has to bear all costs and risks of loss of or > damage to the goods from that point. The FOB term requires the > seller to clear the goods for export. [etc.] > > The Incoterms site confuses these different things when it says, > for example, that "Incoterms need revising periodically." What it > means is that the Preambles need revising periodically. As far as > I can tell, the thirteen Incoterms and their three-letter > abbreviations have not changed for over half a century -- probably > longer. The revision can be just on the meaning of a given Incoterm (g.e field of application) and this "could" change descriptions and/or the full Incoterms 2000 documentation available at payment. But you are right the code has never changed. > > The answer to the question, "Can we include an Incoterms code list > in UBL?" depends on what we mean by "code list" and whether we > mean legal ability or mechanical ability. I sent a genericode draft to Ken with 3 columns: code, description and group (this is just the 1st char of the code) > > If by "Incoterms code list" we mean a genericode version of the > following: > > CFR / COST AND FREIGHT / COUT ET FRET > CIF / COST, INSURANCE AND FREIGHT / COUT, ASSURANCE ET FRET > CIP / CARRIAGE AND INSURANCE PAID TO / PORT PAYE, ASSURANCE COMPRISE, > JUSQU'A > CPT / CARRIAGE PAID TO / PORT PAYE JUSQU'A > DAF / DELIVERED AT FRONTIER / RENDU FRONTIERE > DDP / DELIVERED DUTY PAID / RENDU DROITS ACQUITTES > DDU / DELIVERED DUTY UNPAID / RENDU DROITS NON ACQUITTES > DEQ / DELIVERED EX QUAY / RENDU A QUAI > DES / DELIVERED EX SHIP / RENDU EX SHIP > EXW / EX WORKS / A L'USINE > FAS / FREE ALONG SHIP / FRANCO LE LONG DU NAVIRE > FCA / FREE CARRIER / FRANCO TRANSPORTEUR > FOB / FREE ON BOARD / FRANCO BORD > > then I believe the answer is yes, we can include it in UBL, > because this list is taken (by me) from the table printed in UNECE > Recommendation No. 5, "ABBREVIATIONS OF INCOTERMS: Alphabetic Code > for Incoterms 2000" (ECE/TRADE/259, Geneva, May 2000). I note in > passing that the table in ECE/TRADE/259 is identical to that given > in ECE/TRADE/202 (Geneva, January 1996); the latter also provides > the following handy alternative text: > > EXW - EX WORKS > FCA - FREE CARRIER > FAS - FREE ALONGSIDE SHIP > FOB - FREE ON BOARD > CFR - COST AND FREIGHT > CIF - COST, INSURANCE AND FREIGHT > CPT - CARRIAGE PAID TO (named place) > CIP - CARRIAGE AND INSURANCE PAID TO (named place) > DAF - DELIVERED AT FRONTIER > DES - DELIVERED EX SHIP > DEQ - DELIVERED EX QUAI > DDU - DELIVERED DUTY UNPAID > DDP - DELIVERED DUTY PAID > > If, on the other hand, we mean by "Incoterms code list" a > genericode version of all possible composites (abbreviations x > places + "Incoterms 2000"), then I think the answer is yes, we > legally can, but do we really want to? It seems to me that the > resulting code list would be about 13 times as large as the > portcode list, which already takes up about 47 MB of disk space. of course noone need it > > If we've modeled this in a way that requires the code element to > contain an entire composite, then it looks like we've got a > problem, but if so, it's a mechanical one, not a legal one. From > Roberto's note, however, it seems that we've divided this > information between cac:DeliveryTerms/cbc:ID (specific examples: > CIF, FOB, EXW) and cac:DeliveryTerms/cac:DeliveryLocation/cbc:ID, > so unless I'm missing something, we're fine with this. yes this is corre t for an electronic document (see upper explanation for printed format) > We just > need to add a gc version of the thirteen-item list above to the > set of code lists in 2.1. > > I don't have time today to look into Roberto's second question > regarding commodity codes, but I'll post something when I get the > chance. > > Jon Thanks Jon ! This will make UBL even better ! > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that > generates this mail. You may a link to this group and all your TCs in > OASIS > at: > https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php > > -- * UBL Italian Localization SubCommittee (ITLSC), co-Chair * UBL Online Community editorial board member (ubl.xml.org) * Italian UBL Advisor * OASIS NEWS italian translator Roberto Cisternino mobile: +39 328 2148123 skype: roberto.cisternino.ubl-itlsc [UBL Technical Committee] http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl [UBL Italian Localization Subcommittee] http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ubl-itlsc [Iniziativa UBL Italia] http://www.ubl-italia.org [UBL Support] (prevista migrazione su ubl.xml.org) http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ubl-ssc [UBL Online Community] (...in avviamento) http://ubl.xml.org [Gruppo Esperti UBL] (...in avviamento) http://www.ublguild.org/ [Free UBL Writer @ JAVEST] http://www.javest.com
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