[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]
Subject: Re: [wsrm] Rel 33: some thoughts and proposal...
Sunil Kunisetty wrote: > > Peter, > > We are indeed referring to RM Ack and not Application/Business App. > We discussed this > in the Oracle F2F and we definitely said the latter is outside our > realm. The current proposal > for REL 33 is more like a transport Ack and Jacques and I are > suggesting to make it more like > a RM Ack. So seems like you are in agreement with us and your only > concern is the usage > of words. > > Before I list the choices, I just want to re-emphasize that this > (correct usage of words) issue is > sort of orthogonal as we use the same phrase in defining the Ordering > semantics also. > I think the major differerance that I see is that with the "ack when made availalble" proposal will result in a message N in an ordered delivery sequence not being acked until after all messages with sequence number < N are acked. Since the sender will understand the semantics, this will give the correct amount of information to let them know when they can flush the message from their own retention mechanisms to guarantee reliability. I think that this will go a long way to achieving the requirements for reliable messaging. Tom Rutt Tom Rutt > > > So let me list the choice of words: > 1) "make it available to the application/user". > 2) "make it available to the next layer". > 3) "RMP passing responsibility for the message to the user" > [I copied this from the Tom's meeting minutes as Pete W. saying so] > 4) "Transferring the responsibility to the next layer". > [i vaguely recollect someone saying it in the call.] > > Does any one have any other suggestions? In the above list, I prefer > option 2 with a comment > that the next layer could be the application user itself. > > Thoughts? > > -Sunil > > "Furniss, Peter" wrote: > >> I'll try and state what was worrying me about this on the call last >> night:Although the concept "make available to the application/user" >> can usefully be used to specify the meaning of a sequence, that >> doesn't imply that it will necessarily happen synchronously to the >> communication. Perhaps best explained by scenario:an RM receiver >> receives incoming work overnight and delivers items when they are >> asked for by the human-driven application during the day. If messages >> arrive as part of a sequence, the software will only offer them to >> the user in the right order. It therefore fulfils the sequence >> requirement of making them available in order, but the time of making >> available is invariably while the RMP is out of communication with >> the sender.Now you can try and get round that by claiming that the >> storage of the message in the queue in circumstances that would >> permit its later delivery (i.e. all prior msgs received) is the point >> of "making it available to the user", but that is distinctly >> artificial and confusing. If you don't bend the rules like that, then >> the proposed change would mean that *none* of the messages received >> during any connection session (even if they weren't part of >> sequences) could be ack'ed until the next night.But the phrase used >> often last night was that the ack should be sent when the receiver >> can assure the sender that the receiver now has responsibility for >> the message, and the sender is absolved of its responsibility. But >> that can occur on a message-by-message basis and has nothing to do >> with whether the message is yet delivered or deliverable to the >> user. Actually, I think the fix to the original problem here is to >> understand Ack correctly at the sender side - it's just a RM ack, and >> means the responsibility has been transferred. There is the >> possibility of another acknowlegement - the message has been >> delivered, but that's at a higher level - and may itself be sent back >> queued. >> >> Peter >> >> ------------------------------------------ >> Peter Furniss >> Chief Scientist, Choreology Ltd >> >> Cohesions 1.0 (TM) >> Business transaction management software for application coordination >> >> web: http://www.choreology.com <http://www.choreology.com/> >> email: peter.furniss@choreology.com >> phone: +44 870 739 0066 <-- new, from 4 August 2003 >> mobile: +44 7951 536168 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> *From:* Jacques Durand [mailto:JDurand@fsw.fujitsu.com] >> *Sent:* 18 November 2003 22:10 >> *To:* 'wsrm@lists.oasis-open.org' >> *Subject:* [wsrm] Rel 33: some thoughts and proposal... >> >> All: >> Sorry for a late notification, but here is a proposal for Rel 33 >> where a change in >> the current semantics for Acknowledgements is proposed. >> This is in the light of other issues that we are currently >> trying to solve these days. >> >> We would appreciate having at least the opportunity to present it >> to the TC at this meeting, if enough time... >> Again, apologies for late notice but that is a very recent >> conclusion of ours, >> and we'd like at least to get early feedback if possible. >> >> Jacques >> ----------------------------------------------------------------- >> We'd like to propose a change in the semantics of sending an >> Acknowledgment. >> Instead of sending the Ack when the message is received, the Ack. >> would be sent >> when the message is made available to the server-side >> application/user. >> After some discussion related to faults/notifications, we believe >> this would help >> significantly to get both Sender/Receiver aligned, >> and also reduce the need for additional faults and notifications, >> always problematic >> (e.g. if polling needed). >> The advantages we see with the new proposal are: >> - More consistent semantically because the message is made >> available to >> the user once acked, no more when buffered. >> - Solves the async. failure notification problems. >> - Makes Rel 50, Rel 52, and Rel 57 simpler. >> - the main difference is for ordered groups, for pending >> out-of-order sequence. >> - all semantics of RM features (guaranteed delivery, dup elim, >> ordering) would now be >> about conditions of delivery to application. >> We have considered cases where Acks of received messages would be >> delayed >> due to out-of-order sequences (not made available to app yet). >> To jot some memories back, this was decision we made at the first >> F2F >> at Redwood Shores and was reverted back later as it may have payload >> affect during retries. We believe this is a performance issue and >> a trade-off on a functional behavior for a performance one. >> Performance can be handled without problem (see below) >> -------- detail: >> For implementations that are concerned about performance hit, an >> optimization >> they could use is to only retry the lowest un-acked message in a >> grouped >> ordered case, i.e., if msgs. 1,2,3 are sent and Sender hasn't >> received >> acks. for 2 and 3, the Sender should not retry 3 until they get >> an ack. for 2. >> For RMP impl. that doesn't worry about retries throttling the >> Receiver, >> they might still send parallel retries. Either approach won't >> have any effect >> on the end user behavior. >> -- ---------------------------------------------------- Tom Rutt email: tom@coastin.com; trutt@fsw.fujitsu.com Tel: +1 732 801 5744 Fax: +1 732 774 5133
[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]