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Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11June
Alan - I think that in Eilon's scenario it is the consumer that implements the search service and only uses the producer to display the results. That way the consumer has full control. Best regards Carsten Leue ------- Dr. Carsten Leue Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory Böblingen , Germany Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401 |---------+----------------------------> | | Alan Kropp | | | <akropp@epicentri| | | c.com> | | | | | | 06/11/2002 09:04 | | | PM | | | Please respond to| | | Alan Kropp | | | | |---------+----------------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "'Eilon Reshef'" <eilon.reshef@webcollage.com>, Alan Kropp <akropp@epicentric.com>, wsia@lists.oasis-open.org, | | wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org | | cc: | | Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June | | | | | >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Hi Eilon, It seems to me the Consumer still doesn't really need a say in how the Producer implements the search service runtime model. It's true that if the Producer creates all of these transient entities, there is the issue of when it is "safe" to destroy them. Transient entities don't have an inherent lifecycle, but the sessions which talk to them do...so, when these sessions have timed out, the Producer is able to determine that a transient entity is no longer a party to any active session. Would it be valid to say that the Producer, at that point, may assume the transient entity is stale and destroy it? I guess this is a variation on reference counting/GC that Java developers are already familiar with. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect the Producer to employ intelligence like this to efficiently manage its entities. Alan -----Original Message----- From: Eilon Reshef [mailto:eilon.reshef@webcollage.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:36 AM To: 'Alan Kropp'; wsia@lists.oasis-open.org; wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June Alan, I think that one example scenario is a search results page, say for hotels, that dynamically displays multiple maps - a map for each hotel found. Assuming that maps are remote services, and assuming that the number of results is dynamic, the Consumer needs to create multiple copies of the map service. If we allow the Producer to determine the persistence state of those maps, that would mean that someone will have to take care of the lifetime of those maps. The Consumer can't, because the page may be gone without the Consumer never knowing about it (the user closes the browser window). The Producer can't, because it can't tell whether the Consumer has stored a reference to those maps as part of a design-time description of a user page. Is that along the lines of what you were looking for? Eilon -----Original Message----- From: Alan Kropp [mailto:akropp@epicentric.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:18 PM To: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org' Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June I find that the question of a Consumer creating a persistent vs. a transient entity to be a little troubling. Isn't the Consumer primarily interested in getting a handle to an _entity_ (be that transient or persistent), and then using that handle to direct subsequent requests to? Could we not consider persistence and transience to be entirely Producer concerns? I understand from the sequence in the spec (pp. 6-8) that the only supporting scenario for the Consumer calling "createTransientEntity" is out of an effort to maximize the efficiency of the conversation with the Producer. This is a worthy goal, of course, but the Producer should advertise its interaction behavior in the meta-data, right? Presumably the Producer uses the meta-data to hint to the Consumer the way(s) the Consumer SHOULD structure invocation requests efficiently. I'd love to see some more convincing scenarios to support pushing the persistent/transient aspect of the conversation out to the Consumer. Otherwise, I'd love even more to limit our specification to a single "createEntity" call. Alan -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:19 AM To: Gil Tayar Cc: thomas klein6; 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org' Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June Gil - 1-3: the consumer MUST explicitly create entities (transient or persistent). It can decide to create sessions explicitly if it wants to share them amongs entities, otherwise it can let the producer create sessions on the fly. 4: the decision to have multiple entities per session is up to the consumer who make this choice based on the producer's metadata. e.g think of portlets that form a shop together. These would want to share a session with each other. But the consumer could decide to have two shops of the same type on the same page. Then there would be two sessions and only the consumer could know what portlet shares what session. 5: The consumer should create a session before issuing a getFragment call. The entity is created whenever necessary. 6: A Session is a bucket that holds some data (physically on the provider) and times-out after a while. A transient entity is a remote portlet that does not store any data in a DB. Hope that helped. Best regards Carsten Leue ------- Dr. Carsten Leue Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory Böblingen , Germany Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401 |---------+----------------------------> | | Gil Tayar | | | <Gil.Tayar@webcol| | | lage.com> | | | | | | 06/11/2002 09:28 | | | AM | | | Please respond to| | | Gil Tayar | | | | |---------+----------------------------> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: Carsten Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE | | cc: "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'" <wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'" <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, Thomas| | Klein6/Germany/IBM@IBMDE | | Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June | | | | | > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------| Carsten, could you clarify some things for me? 1. If sessions and entities are orthogonal, what SHOULD the Consumer do? 2. SHOULD it create a transient entity _and_ a session? 3. MUST it do so? 4. Who gets to decide whether there are multiple entities per session or multiple sessions per entities? 5. When SHOULD a Consumer create a session and when a transient entity? 6. What _is_ a session, logically? What _is_ a transient entity? Gil -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 08:45 To: Alan Kropp Cc: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'; thomas klein6 Subject: Re: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June Alan - some first thoughts 1. the general concept is that entities (transient or persistent) and sessions are orthogonal. There might be mulitple entities per session and (at least for persistent entities) multiple sessions per entity. An example for the first case would be that entities share session data within the same user request. An example for the second case are portlets on a common page (group page) that are access simultaneously by multiple users. A transient entity differs from a persistent entity in that its data does not persist and its lifecycle is coupled with the session life cycle. 2. Eilon pointed out in a comment to the interface proposal that batch processing is already part of SOAP. I was not aware of that and will look it up until the call. Best regards Carsten Leue ------- Dr. Carsten Leue Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory Böblingen , Germany Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401 |---------+----------------------------> | | Alan Kropp | | | <akropp@epicentri| | | c.com> | | | | | | 06/11/2002 01:54 | | | AM | | | Please respond to| | | Alan Kropp | | | | |---------+----------------------------> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'" <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'" <wsia@lists.oasis-open.org> | | cc: | | Subject: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June | | | | | > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------| I think we'll have plenty of discussion around the merged document Rich and Carsten put together. The two main issues I see that have arisen on the email lists are: 1. What is the difference between transient entities and sessions, and is there enough of a distinction to warrant including both in the specification? 2. There are efficiency concerns around the use of arrays in the method signatures, basically to enable batched requests for network efficiency. Call-in numbers: USA Toll Free Number: 877-718-0936 USA Toll Number: +1-712-923-6878 PARTICIPANT PASSCODE: 563151 Alan ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
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