ebBP TC Meeting 10 November 2003 Attendees: Abrell JB Clark Dodds Dubray Eckenfels Fischer Kartha Kulvantunyou Lemmetty Moberg Mukkamala Nagahashi Pradhan St. Amand Webber Yunker Martin Agenda: MINUTES APPROVAL 11/3/2003 Minutes posted 6 November 2003. Ask if anyone is not receiving - None. Martin: Serm Kulvantunyou will provide comments on use of OWL (Updated minutes uploaded 12 Nov 2003). He will also help in providing OAG test cases for IV&I and STAR (Action item created 12 Nov). Yunker: Should also consider working with Ontology Forum that was an outgrowth of UBL TC. a. Ontologies - Ontologies group REA, Protege, OWL, and KIF b. Express concepts in UBL, REA, UMM, CC, etc. c. Formal ontological representations Yunker will provide a link and we will discuss next week. Kulvantunyou: Also see OAGi semantic interoperability effort (oagi-si Yahoo Groups). Team will look for use cases first; not formal ontology. Yunker: Motion to accept minutes 3 Nov 2003. No objection. USE OF IRC SERVICES Discuss possible use of IRC. Sacha Schlegel Schlegel is not present today. JBClark: Trying within OASIS to reach middle ground for process and don't use technology access that are not generally available. Access is of concern. Eckenfels: Set up IRC for WS-BPEL and we can use this. Gateway is asynchronous. Moberg: W3C using IRC but has experienced some problems with firewalls and ping issues. JBClark: Haven't sorted out issues within OASIS; minutes/meeting are the normative reference. Any decisions or motions cannot be only in IRC. Moberg: Can give immediate comments if we use IRC. Eckenfels: Open up IRC servers for clients to use what interface they prefer. Clients if people with to use. Provided by Sacha Schlegel (thanks Sacha!) --------------------IRC clients------------------------------ Linux/Unix/Mac/Windows: ----------------------- Mozilla Chatzilla at http://www.mozilla.org Linux/Unix: ----------- Textbased BitchX at http://www.bitchx.org Textbased IRSSI at http://www.irssi.org GUIbased X-Chat at http://www.xchat.org MacOS X: -------- ircle at http://www.ircle.com/download.shtml Snak at http://www.snak.com/ Windows: -------- The most common client is MIRC at http://www.mirc.com ------------------------------------------------------------- Moberg: Let people try as they are they wish. Martin: Asked Bernd to send a URL and people can experiment next week. DONE 10 Nov 2003 See: http://www.oasis-open.org/archives/ebxml-bp/200311/msg00076.html BPSS SUMMARY Discuss questions on BPSS summary. Posted summary 7 November 2003. Received by team. Martin: Business transactions suggestion by Webber in Introduction Webber: What about a brochure, with this summary and 1-page summary. Discuss baseline definitions. Definitions sent to team 6 November 2003. Need to add other definitions suggested by Webber. Discuss metamodel summary. John Yunker Yunker: Will work on summary this week. Goal - Formally define the metamodel elements we are dependent on and the current source for that definition. Business Actions, Collaboration, Transitions Formalize discussion of adopt or change moving forward. Moberg: We identify commerce transaction patterns are referenced. There are lower level patterns at the SOAP and WSDL level. Can we explain how they relate to one another - Business vs. technical transaction patterns. Need to reaffirm BPSS is enabling business operations mapping to the technical services implementation. Martin: Is this within the scope of the metamodel effort? Yunker: No, this is really for the TC to decide. Compatibility with CPP/A is the most important driver. EXECUTION DISCUSSION Start of a definition compiled and sent 10 November 2003 by Martin. Yunker: Good ideas for possible requirements to test whether we have an executable framework. The bottom line is can a businessperson look at the actions and transitions and understand the state of the business collaboration. Do we have a complete set of transitions? Are there any problems in the model? Webber: With the binary approach, enforces that you have a deterministic outcome. In WS-BPEL, there is non-deterministic outcome. Pointed use of Choice Points, BCM and to some links via email to the group. Yunker: We do not have a true framework to evaluate conditions of the process states. Dubray: Provide suggestions Moberg: There has been remarkable convergence in WSDL 2.0 towards ebXML. JBClark: Where has this been quantified? Interoperability problems with SOAP encoding Putting interoperability complex types on the wire Asked for references to educate the masses on WSDL 2.0 improvements. Moberg will send to Clark (not related to our work specifically). Moberg: What specifically BPSS should be doing with WSDL? WSDL is basically an interface definition - structure of the data that is put on the wire (i.e. the SOAP body) - Akin to our logical document definition in BPSS. There is binding information that is not as important to BPSS. Mukkamala: Tie into WSDL with BPSS and relate to the documents. Service Identification is also required. Modularity and layering with BPSS is different than WSDL. Identify the business document schema from a WSDL. Point to the interface definition. If the same service is being exposed as WSDL or ebXML Business Process definition, these could be used. Subteam in CPP/A is defining where that binding information should be placed (currently in DocExchange). Need to define division of labor - aspects of WSDL between CPP/A and BPSS. This does respect the layering between CPP/A and BPSS. Webber: Under current architecture, if an industry group wants to define across their domain, at the WSDL level you introduce information that is hard wired to systems and implementations (such as the endpoint). The value that BPSS has is that it does not do this. After CPP/A and BPSS are chosen, need to add partner information to configure across BPSS instances. Mukkamala: The WSDL abstract service definitions are separate from the physical endpoint definitions. Moberg: There will be XPATH ways to define the elements of interest. Eckenfels: On the level BPSS wants to define, for example buying, not the business document exchange level, how do I separate from system level instance? I am interested in reusing the process definition. The business process is the same. Mukkamala: Considering business processes that are not based on XML - EDI. Webber: This maps back to CAM TC work (document binding for the BPSS) - point to CAM template (assembly document for multiple formats) driven from context parameters from the BPSS. CAM uses referenced business rules. Moberg: In the guard conditions, we have a document language - how does this map to CAM? Webber: Use late binding. Dubray: Opportunity in the new release of BPSS to come closer to web services. Multi-party is very important and web services relationship is as well. These two clear items are coming through on the discussions: 1. Change the way we look at multi-party collaboration. 2. Define relationship of BPSS to web services. Prioritize and define what is the scope for next version. Moberg: Agrees. Line up vocabulary and vision. Dubray: Imagine that ebXML and basic web services would be used together. In a multi-party choreography, you need to create a credit check service. Moberg: Would this be done within BPSS or CPP/A? Dubray: Need to look at hybrid use cases to iron that out. Martin: Use cases - Dick Brooks for utilities; automotive for IV&I for example. Moberg: ebMS 3.0 will use SOAP 1.2. Need to coordinate for ebXML compatibility. Other business: F2F Martin: Ask Dee Schur for list of events. January may be a quiet time. Moberg: Scottsdale for Cyclone Dubray: Bellevue for Attachmate Fischer: Two relevant conferences upcoming in early 2004. Will provide. Discuss proposed draft issues process. Posted 7 November 2003. NO TIME FOR DISCUSSION Start issues discussion. Posted 7 November 2003. NO TIME FOR DISCUSSION ACTIONS: Martin: Finish compatibility draft - to specifications conceptually or technically to get compatibility and possibly drive liaisons. Address how this relates to interoperability and portability. Webber: Send CAM reference to list. DONE 10 Nov 2003. Eckenfels: Provide IRC location. DONE 10 Nov 2003. Martin: Send inquiry to list on 1-page pamphlet for ebBP. DONE 12 Nov 2003. Martin: Update baseline definitions and send to the list. Fischer: Provide tentative conferences that may assist in participant travel. PENDING TO GET ADDITIONAL DETAILS (as of 12 Nov 2003). MARTIN: Query Schur on OASIS and related conference events. DONE 12 Nov 2003.