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Subject: RE: RE: [ubl-dev] infinite loop
Hi all, I never imagined so much discussions about this thing ... My poor opinion is: 1) A document model is designed to represent the way information is correlated in the real world (nothing more). 2) Every guy has a mummy: This is effectively causing an endless loop using object oriented, XSD or other means. 3) The endless loop problem is a software problem, not a human one. The business side of this issue is related to humans, so we do not care about loops. The informatics side is suffering a lot from this, but programmers are there to put constraints and limits such loops. The "business informatics" then is the final result... and people is happy: Welcome UBL ! > Steve, > Actually we do need to make this easy! Crushingly easy. > This is my day job - to get average developers up and running and using > standards based XML exchanges - and I can say this is not easy for them to > assimilate - because the average developer with about 5 years experience > is the one tasked with implementing this today. They know what XML looks > like - but complex schema - xslt - no can do. > Big hint - their developer tooling will integrate to their back end and > build the XML for them - so they do not need your standard XML. If they > cannot get your standard XML to work - they roll their own - because > that's quicker for them. Worse - the developer tooling vendor positively > encourages that - because it locks them into that platform. No surprise > that the developer tooling will inject all kinds of things into their XML > and schema that only works consistently with that vendors platform. > I know this stuff has been around for 10 years - and is mainstream - but > that actually makes it more important to be simple - because people assume > that it is - and shock - when its not - they do not use your stuff! > Keeping the Schema simple - ensures it works with all vendors tooling > consistently and predictably - giving interoperability and short > implementation cycles. > People knowing your stuff is complex and difficult to do may be job > security for UBL consultants - but in the bigger world - just means people > are avoiding using your XML and doing it themselves instead, or using one > of the other choices out there. > Thanks, DW > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: RE: [ubl-dev] infinite loop > From: Stephen Green > Date: Fri, June 25, 2010 5:51 pm > To: "David RR Webber (XML)" > Cc: "ubl-dev@lists.oasis-open.org" > > OK but even if it is difficult isn't this what we pay software engineers > for? I bet it is difficult to process OWL but the tools are still free. > Google has no problem with complex XML. We hardly need to handhold people > over XML nowadays. On 25 Jun 2010 22:46, "David RR Webber (XML)" wrote: > > Steve, > Unfortunately that is not what I'm seeing. Mark is correct vis the NDR > for schema. > It is very difficult for tools to automatically detect all recursion, and > even when they do detect it - how do they handle it? > For example in NIEM the CAM toolkit detects direct recursion on > substitution groups - disables the recursive part - but still includes the > non-recursive leaf nodes around and inside the node. That is very highly > specialized handling based on knowing how the human architect engineered > those groups. You cannot expect general purpose schema tools to know all > that. > Therefore you are creating the very thing you seek to avoid - > inconsistency - because you cannot predict how tools will handle the types > of recursion in UBL; ignore it, fail, or partially include components > within the recursion? > When you come back to the business needs - which are for clear and > predictable exchange structures - I want to woe you back over to the side > of simple here! That is what I believe we heard today. > We should be recommending best practices technically that lead to a good > experience for business users - and not one where they cannot understand > why the technology is attempting to push them to use constructs that they > cannot fathom the purpose or need for. Again - I believe association > references are clear and the normal practice, whereas recursive components > are unexpected. > From the modelling stance - I know this can be tricky in really large > models such as NIEM and UBL. In NIEM I have seen recursion occurring > simply because the architects added components without realizing that > there existed indirect connections that then meant that part is then > recursive. In NIEM this applies particularly to the "Person" entity - > which is now 1.5Mb of XML (wow!) - and includes the life history of a > person and their travels through administrative systems managing that! > I would like to see modelling and schema tools explicitly warning > architects that the new association they are adding is in fact recursive. > However I see why vendors push back at adding that - because it is > non-trivial to put into their products. > Bottom line - if you use associations instead of recursion - you avoid all > these pitfalls and issues. > Thanks, DW > > > -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: [ubl-dev] infinite loop> From: Stephen Green > > Date: Fri, June 25, 2010 5:21 pm >> To: "Crawford... >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To >> unsubscribe, e-mail: ubl-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org For >> additional commands, e-mail: ubl-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To >> unsubscribe, e-mail: ubl-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org For >> additional commands, e-mail: ubl-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org -- * JAVEST by Roberto Cisternino * * Document Engineering Services Ltd. - Alliance Member * UBL Italian Localization SubCommittee (ITLSC), co-Chair * UBL Online Community editorial board member (ubl.xml.org) * Italian UBL Advisor Roberto Cisternino mobile: +39 328 2148123 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting +39 328 2148123 end_of_the_skype_highlighting skype: roberto.cisternino.ubl-itlsc [UBL Technical Committee] http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl [UBL Online Community] http://ubl.xml.org [UBL International Conferences] http://www.ublconference.org [UBL Italian Localization Subcommittee] http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl-itlsc [Iniziativa divulgativa UBL Italia] http://www.ubl-italia.org
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