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Subject: RE: [ubl-dev] [ebxml-dev] RE: [ubl-dev] UBL payload and client-server integration tools
Stephen, The ebBP uses an abstract document concept - e.g. "UBL Invoice SBS 123" It's then up to the downstream systems to resolve that to physical payloads and rules. In the new ebBP - you have the ability to associate document definition templates - such as CAM, xsd, xslt, etc. You can also assign context variables. So you could create a context variable - $handling_type and have XML or binary. Then using (naturally!) a CAM template - you could allow the forking of handling depending on the type of processing required. CAM out the box supports the XML of course - but you could add an <Extension> to pre-process the binary into XML - thus supporting both. DW -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [ubl-dev] [ebxml-dev] RE: [ubl-dev] UBL payload and client-server integration tools From: "Stephen Green" <stephen_green@bristol-city.gov.uk> Date: Tue, November 14, 2006 9:41 am To: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>, <ubl-dev@lists.oasis-open.org> How about the ebBP business process definitions? Would these need to be in duplicate too - one for binary with a reference to the ASN.1 in the document specification and one for XML as text with a reference to the W3C XML Schema? Or if just one definition is preferable would the CPA override it? Or does the CPA not have to mention an ASN.1 schema but rely on the separate endpoint to cater for the binary aspect 'knowing' that it has to use the ASN.1 instead of the XSD? >>> "Stephen Green" <stephen_green@bristol-city.gov.uk> 14/11/06 14:34:54 >>> Thanks David David wrote: "Now if you have different ports on your server depending on the packaging - that's a different story - then its easy for the partner to connect to the right port depending on his needs. " That sounds like an excellent idea and probably near enough to the 'just throw a switch' concept. I guess using the binary as a MIME attachment too is as far as tools might reliably support with ebXML for now too. Once tool support improves it might be that ebMS TC opts to produce ASN.1 schemas as well as the W3c XML Schemas as part of the package like UBL does now. All the best Steve >>> "David RR Webber (XML)" <david@drrw.info> 14/11/06 14:26:11 >>> Stephen, To me this is nothing more than FAX 3, 2, 1 - you negoitate at the highest speed and then drop back from there till you find a connection the partner will accept. I'm not sure this happens at the CPA level though - its at the communications firmware / connection negiotation below that. All the CPA cares about is a stable connection. Now if you have different ports on your server depending on the packaging - that's a different story - then its easy for the partner to connect to the right port depending on his needs. I would suggest that would be the best path. In which case you have deltas of your CPA - with different port #s in the endpoint URL - depending on the service you want - and that descreet CPA is stored on the system where needed - cellphone, PDA, etc. Remember the binary can travel as binary attachment with the regular ebMS enveloping - we're doing that already. Plus - you can selective break the payload into parts - so you have a staged delivery - push/pull model - where the low bandwidth connection retrieves the summary of available packages first - then requests more later - or routes those requests to higher bandwidth service. DW -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [ubl-dev] UBL payload and client-server integration tools From: "Stephen Green" <stephen_green@bristol-city.gov.uk> Date: Tue, November 14, 2006 5:56 am To: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>, <ubl-dev@lists.oasis-open.org> Oops Rushing too much read "don't have ADSL or cable modem" - I hope you know what I mean >>> "Stephen Green" <stephen_green@bristol-city.gov.uk> 14/11/06 10:45:57 >>> Correction: I meant instead of "don't have much more than cable modem..." "don't have more than ADSL modem" :-) >>> "Stephen Green" <stephen_green@bristol-city.gov.uk> 14/11/06 10:42:15 >>> Another consideration the article doesn't mention so much is situations where bandwidth may still be a limiting factor - such as when a large number of people use WiMax in a particular area or the fact that much of the world still doesn't have more than cable modem internet access. Others still don't have TCP. So here there might be a good application with websites such as those with interactive maps. Steve >>> "Stephen Green" <stephen_green@bristol-city.gov.uk> 14/11/06 10:15:15 >>> Thanks Pim for pointing to this excellent article. I guess there may be problems with implementation though - hence a request for any interesting notes about anyone's experience with this. For example: 1. How do firewalls cope with the binary rather than the XML text? 2. To quote the article "Fast has to work well with existing Web Services standards and APIs so that there is minimal impact on the developers. A developer should not have to maintain two code bases with different APIs for the same Web Service, nor should (s)he have to define two different Web Service contracts for any particular service. Ideally, a developer should be able, at the flick of a switch, to specify: "I want my service to go Faster when talking to Fast-enabled peers." - how does use of ebXML fare with this? Would it not be necessary to have a different CPA for 'Fast'? Hence that might make the 'just flick a switch' ideal a bit of a challenge. Of course it's just early days in standards terms and in terms of tools support such as in Java, by the looks of things. Many thanks Stephen Green >>> "Pim van der Eijk" <pim.vandereijk@oasis-open.org> 13/11/06 18:00:05 >>> Hello Stephen, There is some related work called "Fast Web Services": http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/WebServices/fastWS/ This seems compatible without any special effort with ebMS 2 and 3 when used to encode attachments stored as MIME parts with a special "application/fastinfoset" MIME type. Packaging information in the CPA can reference this too. A more drastic approach would be to encode the ebXML SOAP envelope in this binary format. In ebMS3 an application payload can be in a SOAP body, so the UBL payload stored as subelement of the SOAP envelope would be in this compact format too. This would probably require some changes to some core parts of the ebXML Messaging version 3 spec, but nothing essential. In ebXML, we would not need the "optimistic"/"pessimistic" HTTP Accept-based negotiation mentioned in http://java.sun.com/webservices/docs/1.6/jaxrpc/fastinfoset/manual.html as the partner-agreed result of negotiation could be in set in the CPA. The main benefits of compact formats are support for environments where bandwidth is scarce or expensive, such as mobile environments, or where very large XML messages are exchanged. For UBL, I'm not sure either of these conditions apply. Pim van der Eijk Register for OASIS Adoption Forum 2006: Enabling Efficiency between Government, Business and the Citizen 27-29 Nov 2006, London www.oasis-open.org/events/adoptionforum2006/ -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Green [mailto:stephen_green@bristol-city.gov.uk] Sent: 13 November 2006 15:28 To: ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org; ubl-dev@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: [ebxml-dev] Re: [ubl-dev] UBL payload and client-server integration tools Chee-Kai / Fulton, Thanks for opening up the view of the possible applications for the use of binary parallels to XML here. We could view the XML and the XML Schema (XSD) as the theory (essential as such) and the binary as the practical. Another analogy might be to view the XML/XSD as the score and the binary as the audible music but the binary 'sings' not to the score but to an adaptation of the score by its use of the ASN.1 equivalent of the XSD. So we need to have the practice of composing the score, then having it adapted, then reading the adaptation and turning it into music; in other words, architecting the schemas in XML Schema, turning those into ASN.1 (as UBL does) and using the ASN.1 optionally to determine the content of binary messages (for various reasons such as interoperability improved compres- sion). Making this 'standard practice' seems to me to offer the optimal (by current state of art) solution for messages, whether for RIA or for modern equivalents to the traditional uses of EDI or to whatever is just around the corner. It's looking good. It seems to closely parallel the standard practises of coding software quite nicely so it should be very easy for developers and information architects to understand. First the text, then the compilation to binary. Here we have first the message composition and the message equivalent of the source code which is kept for posterity and maintenance, then we have the binary equivalent which is actually used at runtime. All the best Stephen Green >>> Chin Chee-Kai <cheekai@SoftML.Net> 13/11/06 05:25:55 >>> At 06:58 PM 2006-11-09 -0500, Fulton Wilcox wrote: >Stephan et al: > >What are the implications of fairing UBL into RIA architectures? >..... >The second is to consider use of RIA techniques within the more typical >eBusiness server-to-server exchange of transactions. RIA calls are >built for speed and light touch on bandwidth, so the fit would be to >highly repetitive transactions - e.g., price checks, inventory >availability checks, transportation scheduling, etc. > Fulton Wilcox > Colts Neck Solutions lLC Very interesting thoughts about RIA & the "built for speed and light touch" stuff. I'm much delighted to hear about this conversation. I don't know much about RIA stuff, but do think the "speed and light touch" aspect is interesting to explore for UBL. From UBL instances' perspective, this could either be viewed or translated as (A) an encoding problem, or (B) a translation problem. One could use specifications from binary XML to do (A) with significant reduction in textual bytes in the instance payload. But I suspect RIA is going for the really highly interactive sort of communication environment and might need a more rudimentary (B) solution. In a way, while UBL TC produces schemas as normative output, there's no limitation that the instances cannot be mapped and stored in another manner. One quick thought that comes to mind is to assign a UBL-wide unique ID to each and every BBIE, ABIE and ASBIE, using possibly a 16-bit word and values being assigned authoritatively only through/by UBL TC.ipar Government, Business and the Citize Structural composition of the BIEs could be easily done through usual header/trailer byte style, or header-fixed-length packets. Best Regards, Chin Chee-Kai SoftML Tel: +65-6820-2979 Fax: +65-6820-2979 Email: cheekai@SoftML.Net http://SoftML.Net/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: st-server integration toolsubl-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: ubl-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: ubl-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: ubl-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: ubl-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: ubl-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: ubl-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: ubl-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org
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